Part 1 of 2: This foundational conversation challenges Western perceptions of trauma by arguing that all pain is valid regardless of scale. The speakers explore how trauma creates unexpected clarity by forcing rapid prioritization, while emphasizing that healing cannot be rushed or standardized. The discussion introduces the concept that even “micro-traumas” like insurance battles contribute significantly to one’s journey.

Goodpain’s first season and series explores the complex landscape of trauma, grief, and healing through deeply personal conversations between two friends who have experienced profound loss. The season reframes trauma not as something to overcome but as something to move through with intention. It suggests that conventional approaches to grief and trauma often fall short because they seek to “fix” rather than accompany, to provide answers rather than presence, and to rush healing rather than honor the necessary time it takes.

Transcript

Cold Open

My conclusion should be if I’m two steps ahead of everybody else, I should be two steps ahead of myself able to think through things and part of why I think I have come to embrace trauma is Because I’ve enjoyed the process of being outsmarted

Intro

I’m Jeremy and I’m Tyler welcome to Good Ping where we talk about life’s true intensities without pretending they’re easy to solve What if the things were totally fixed optimize or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations You desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands the unexpected grief the quiet victories and everything in between Because maybe just maybe the answer isn’t to limit the hard stuff. It’s to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation

Tyler

Welcome to season one of good pain I’m Tyler and I’m so grateful that you are here for our inaugural season of the podcast I Want to offer a content warning that this season includes discussions of profound loss grief and a child’s life-threatening accident and it’s aftermath these conversations explore the raw realities of navigating catastrophic intensity in real time and if these topics might be difficult for you right now Please first just take care of yourself. You know what you need Whether that’s listening when you feel ready having support nearby or choosing to engage with this material at a different time First some background and context for this series It’s gonna run about eight to twelve episodes and it explores the fullness of my family story my story You can find more information about this story at good pain code calm You can click on the book. It’ll give you a summary of what’s coming within that book This season is about that story a Jeremy and I recorded this two years ago And there’s been a lot that has changed even in those those two years and when we first recorded it and I was telling the story telling it was easy listening to myself tell the story was was really challenging for me and so There are some things some some personal recoveries that happened since then that allowed me to actually start doing the Editing and the post-production for this even in listening back to it recently some of those changes are I say the word trauma a lot In this discussion with Jeremy that was at a time when I was really exploring the nature of Trauma as it it relates to all the the minor traumas the small traumas the accumulation of trauma that happens to all of us as We live our life and since then I was introduced to a term that I think better reflects What I mean when I say trauma and that’s intensity particularly even within good pain is we’re talking about shared intensity And I and we think that that shared intensity is more inclusive and more less of a separation the way the word trauma Automatatively can denote we’re really trying to get away from that and so what is this season even well this season? it is using that catastrophic condensed Valley of intensity that that a lot of not a lot of people gets to experience What I believe 15 years after it happened is is that what me and my family experienced in that moment of deep intensity Involving my and Tiffany’s daughter Claire Ottoman Heidi’s sister it contains the same challenges and journeys that we all experience Is just with a different through line now the intensity for many observers? Who feels that they’re standing on the outside or observing you can look at what we experienced and Determined that as a differentiator as something that separates almost as this like thank God I I didn’t experience or haven’t experienced that what we encourage and why we’re sharing this is that? We focus on the similarities of experience the things that draw us together and we experienced far more of that Over the last 15 years then we did with the separation Future seasons of good pain is gonna cover the fullness of life’s Intensities it’s gonna be the peaks and the valleys and everything in between We’re starting here because good pain’s mission is shared stories. It’s shared wisdom. It’s shared questions I can only do that starting from my own sharing my own story Claire’s accident Was the largest initiating event in my story in my family’s story and it deserves and must come out So what are the themes that we’re going to explore? Well this season is gonna talk about redefining trauma the nature of grief denials a protective mechanism Defiance as resistance to loss of control Collaboration as an evolving response to what’s going on and supporting others through through crisis We’re going to explore a lot of those topics Not only through what we experience but through what living in a Western culture What our disposition towards trauma and catastrophe is supposed to be so this first episode where we’re starting is two parts Episode one the one you’re listening to right now and the one that’s going to be dropping next week is Two part are about the broad overview of the story and some of those themes that are emerging in these first two episodes It’s really broad the degree to which I speak about Topics really reflects the nature of those first three months that we were going through it was all over the map I think there’s more of a through line with these first two episodes But there is an aspect that says there’s a lot that we’re covering in these first two Part two as I mentioned is going to drop next week and then the remaining eight to nine episodes They’re going to be available in successive weekly drops So with that context, let me take you back to the conversation between Jeremy and I Exploring what it means to move through life’s most challenging intensities with intention Authenticity and shared curiosity We’re diving into questions that don’t have easy answers and we’re sitting with complexities that can’t be solved And finding our way through territory that has no clear map Here’s where it all began talking about trauma my family’s trauma my trauma Claire’s trauma and what that word really means when my world suddenly changed

Jeremy

Should we start talking about some bigger topics? Yeah, I think

Tyler

You know the topic is Trauma yeah, and what that means I don’t want to reduce it by saying it’s just complicated

Jeremy

Which everybody agree with yeah, it’s simple

Tyler

This is gonna be something that we’re gonna touch on is is that Trauma at least in the Western world has a threshold associated with it And I think that in our environment We oftentimes believe that our right to feel what we’re feeling is Contingent on the size of the trauma that we’ve experienced and so we will Talk about trauma in a way that has this underlying belief unless you’ve experienced something acute You have no right to feel what you’re feeling because there’s always gonna be somebody else who has something more

Jeremy

Significant worse more grand worse timing any of those things. Yeah as affected them in a more Dramatic fashion and that’s not a bad word. Drama is a thing that we live with but the reality of things is that trauma is trauma and we all handle these things wildly differently And the timeline of those are also very sensitive to the individual and we can’t dictate any of that I’m saying things that everybody would agree with I’m saying the obvious stuff. It’s it’s a process It’s a journey and I think that few people are ever really prepared in all of the ways that they would need to to recognize what’s going on with them personally internally and working through the steps of I accept this and this sucks and Working back to a place of being healthy and how do we do that? And it’s different for everybody and also really tricky for Professionals to recognize that they’re arguably better. Hopefully better than lay people like myself that say Oh, I’m really sorry that’s going on and tell me about it But it’s more robust than that and exponentially more horrible for the person in it

Tyler

The stance that I take at this point in time Based on mine and my family’s experience is us sharing experiences a lot of the topics that we are gonna cover including this one I think really only comes to life Through shared experience and sharing our stories

Jeremy

right as opposed to Intellectually pulling apart What does it mean making commentary?

Tyler

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely and and I think for me when it comes to sharing trauma the bellwether for myself is Am I speaking from my head or am I speaking from my heart? That’s gonna be an interesting balance when we’re talking about this is because they are not separate They interact with one another when I look at trauma. It’s on a continuum and In my experience in working with people or talking to people Life is hard, but at least I don’t have to deal with what you’re having to deal with. Yeah Automatically gives me pause every single time because at its core my experience is that all of us are a part of a process that ebbs and flows that has ups and downs and Those ups and those downs are what we call trauma even if it’s prolonged over a life of 75 80 years slow bursts. It’s all it’s all trauma. Yeah yet some people Get a compression of that at once, right? Which creates a significant spike and because it creates a spike that hits this very high Threshold or very low threshold of trauma and grief whatever direction you see it. We relegate that to trauma the big Trauma with a capital T sure life isn’t trauma life is life Those acute episodes most people including myself experience a clarity of how they see the world Because you prioritize in a hurry Very much so right what’s important what isn’t what things can go away. What can you can release?

Jeremy

Emotionally because you don’t have the space for agreed. Yes. Okay. Yes Before we get too far I want to step back if you’re comfortable the comments that we talked about before about I Just can’t imagine going through what you’re going through or some variation of that and these are well-meaning people I just don’t think that there’s recognition of what’s packed in that statement to me. I hear a lot of Sympathy which I think is great, but also It’s a little different it’s more pointed and I think there is a little bit of judgment about man You must have it horribly. I can’t I can’t read my head around what your daily life looks like Would you agree with all these statements or do you think there’s something else?

Tyler

What am I talking about? What what is it that my family has experienced in 2010 my wife and my three daughters went from Celebrating life to knowing in a split second that something horrible had happened. There’s a shift. Yeah, we felt it right away It sounds yeah We asked the question. Where is where is my youngest daughter and Even prior to that question being asked as it was formulating in the air. Sure. We knew something something Bad had happened. Yeah, my youngest is now permanently disabled. We’re full-time caregivers and that’s because of that event on ear drowning and At that moment Time slowed down and when people become aware of that moment The outstanding question of you know, you have it worse or the statement you have it worse than I do Or I don’t know how you do this or right you must be so strong You must be so strong or or I don’t know how I would handle that. Sure all of these questions are Reflective of a couple of things that are within us as community members one of which is We look at other people and what’s happening to them and process that through our own Understanding of ourselves given the tools we’ve acquired up to that point. That’s right. Yeah and interpret what we think is required in order to survive Certain experiences. I’m either not prepared or I would be prepared and in in terms of being a parent I think most of us would say that none of us believe we are prepared partially because Even believing that we would be prepared for that. We don’t want to speak into existence This puts it out in the universe as the kids are saying that’s right. And yeah, we don’t want to go to those places That’s right. And I think that It’s reflective of some of the ways I would say creative ways that we try to exert Control intellectually by convincing ourselves. Yeah, I could never handle this controlling that emotional fear that’s rising rapidly That’s right. Thought of this. Yeah, I’ve found that I’ve tried to use fear as this Medium for communicating to the universe or to whoever that I’m not ready for this. Don’t Don’t bring this upon me and my family. Sure. Sure. So protection is what I’m doing, right?

Jeremy

Yourself, but also the family all the stuff that it’s just hardwired for parents And people who care about other people doesn’t have to be a parent, right?

Tyler

All of us are smarter than we actually give ourselves credit for I believe that We want to convince ourselves that we’re not prepared or that we don’t have the proper knowledge or that we will be ill equipped To deal with certain things and by doing that we undermine our own personal power When people would ask us or say things along lines of I would never be able to do this our common refrain is You don’t know what you are capable of. That’s an interesting statement that’s Simultaneously acknowledges their statement, but also shuts down further questions after is that appropriate? It is without the intention of shutting down those but but at the very least our experience was One don’t sell yourself short. Okay Two You will never know how strong you are until you face the things you fear the most until you’re tested. Yeah That is that is the point. I think we’ve gotten to between me and and Tiffany. It is at a very individual Experience at the same time. It’s very collective like it is sure thank goodness Absolutely each other and your girls. I mean yes huge when claire was injured And we went through first the emergency room time compresses during this period for us and yet I remember very specific points in this moment I remember chasing the ambulance after she had been loaded up

Jeremy

Were you in the ambulance? You were Tiffany in the ambulance?

Tyler

No. No in fact We were not allowed to ride in the ambulance and and knowing now There are certain situations where they do not allow parents to ride and one of the situations that is almost You know always the case is if the victim Is non responsive and clinically dead Wow They cannot deal with whatever needs to be done in the back of that ambulance with This makes sense with a parent who be absolutely now that makes sense It didn’t make sense to you in the moment. I’m sure correct when I administered cpr to her And traded off with a nurse who happens to be there at the same time And then she gets loaded into the back of the the ambulance and is on her way to the hospital First of all the fact that they allowed us to drive there in an altered mental and emotional Condition this is what we’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah, it’s you know, we’re chasing this ambulance and Tiffany and are saying the same thing which is This isn’t happening. This is otherworldly. I’m hearing the armchair psychology piece of that I know you’re in the denial moment. You’re no way. Absolutely. This is not right Something about this is just so different from everything we’ve known at this point And at that point saying this isn’t happening is a little bit more of this is unknown Yeah, everything that is occurring right now is unknown. We are ill equipped We there’s no playbook for this. No and when we Walk into that emergency room and they intercept us and shepherd us into a separate room and 40 minutes later The doctor comes and tells us We have been unable to get her heart going and she’s not breathing Typically at 30 minutes we stop for cessation efforts if we’re an adult For kids we will go a bit longer, but we’re at 40 minutes and we typically stop at 45 And and we don’t think she is She’s going to come back to us You’re not ever equipped to deal with that. There could you be? That’s one of those punctuated moments that We both remember we remember Falling to the ground And we remember five minutes later when that doctor came back and told us She’s breathing again. Oh my god. Wow And being escorted escorted is a kind statement being carried because our your faculties were just gone, right? I mean legs aren’t working approaching that bed and Crying out Claire come, you know, we’re here. Yeah Yeah We’re here Come back to us Claire. Yeah, listen to our voices Yeah At that point knowing that there’s only one thing that matters Letting her know that she is not alone not alone. Yeah and telling her Claire you’re strong. You’re doing great Keep fighting Claire. Yeah And that was it. That was the start The only thing I knew at that point when we were being transferred to a pediatric ICU that was across town Tiffany was going to ride in the car with them The police officers who were there Um, give me there was an escort involved with this with police or they were just the police had been some of the first that arrived on scene Um, okay, Tiffany is with Claire on her way to the the pick you The police are giving me almost a sobriety test They like, you know saying sure are you capable of of driving?

Jeremy

I passed Congratulations, but jeez. Yeah, it’s yeah But there was one thing absolutely also clear to me in that moment Our two oldest had kindly been taken by family friends who were also present at the time I always wondered this and and and watched I knew one thing is that my family needed to be Together together. Yeah, because I’m sure and I’m sure you guys talked about this. I know you’re all very very close, but They must have been going through Who knows what emotionally about seeing this and then having More than half of their family driving away them left behind. I mean, that’s also a huge impact in that moment They’re six and eight at the time. Yes, and like every parent. I believe that they are Highly aware smart intelligent. They see more than most Adults give them credit for that’s something that Tiffany and I have always been aware of and believing that they are Autonomous individuals who have their own thoughts that are seeing what’s going on Yeah, there was only one place they they should be at that point needed They had they had it was it was a non-negotiable for me. Yeah um, and you know the The benevolence of friends saying we will watch them. We will take care of them We you know, so you guys can focus on what sure We knew that the focusing Required us to be together. Yeah, and not to say that those that choose to do it differently Are wrong Or you know that that should have done it differently and I think we’ll get into this is that I think that’s the You know the armchair quarterbacking or hindsight that people bring to the table of this is what I would do differently This is this is what you should do in these situations I’ve always hated those it’s reflective of this insidious belief that When we’re in the midst of being taught a lesson that we have more control than we actually have Yeah, I mean you’re prescribing that there’s a 2020 foresight and my uncle who has been a huge impact in my life For all the right reasons he he taught me something really brilliant Which you took the high road and describing this I’m going to take the lower road But he referred to something like that as the loser’s motto, right should I could have woulda right?

Tyler

It doesn’t help you at the moment because you don’t have those tools And also looking back and regret that I didn’t do these things It’s there’s nothing that could have changed and so you can’t hang on those things you can’t spend time wishing and There’s just nothing that’s going to change it and so anyway what you just said without getting too far afield or going into The collective trauma that the world went through that woulda coulda shoulda It’s divisive and 100 what I would say is trauma does a couple of things It’s puts a spotlight on divisive behavior And we don’t have time for divisive behavior in that moment when I reflect on September 11th and other collective traumas that we have experienced One of the beauties that comes out of that is that division oftentimes goes away And that is that is a part of the clarity that that comes with this Without making this a discussion on collective trauma. Sure I do Hold that picture of a community that sees divisiveness goes away is something also that happens within ourselves Taking this this acute moment that’s happened with me and my family I think this is the tragedy of when we start comparing trauma or trauma competing Part of what I see with the process of life of the ups and downs and the The smaller the the micro traumas that all of us experience over time over a period of decades There’s one thing that most people as they approach the terminal point of our time here on earth is is that Why are we holding on to divisiveness to the degree that we were and more and more the wisdom always is Division is what sucks time away from us the clarity that comes with the accumulation of trauma over time Is that why did I waste so much time and I cannot help but be thankful for The paradox of having Your child and what we feel is her life stolen from her And grieving that and being at times angry furious about that over time has given way to But grudgingly at times some of the things we are thankful about Wow, that’s an amazing boomerang that I wasn’t expecting One of those things is the fact that we don’t have time for division. Yeah, that has ebbed and float there’s times when we have Grasp after division and part of the question with that is what are we getting out of that? Sure. What are we getting from? Indulging some of the division that can’t come out of competing on trauma Because we believe we have more of a right To being angry or to what we’re feeling what we’re experiencing. Yeah than others Is time wasted? Yeah, I mean once again you have proven to take the high road on most things but also showing that you’ve done a lot of work to Try to come to terms and make peace with every aspect of this that you can which is It’s just the hardest thing that I think one would have to be ever forced to deal with Take me back if you will to the moments after The news that you were quietly hoping and praying for whatever energy you’re putting towards Doctors come in and said hey, you need to come to your daughter now That was a huge moment that I can’t imagine But that’s not where the story even remotely ends because your other two girls I think you were alluding to the fact that you went back Collected them brought them to the pick you and then you were all together. Is that accurate? Correct. Okay Just embracing your two girls in that moment. I can only imagine that you were full of adrenaline Thinking not terribly clearly, but also so happy to have those two back next to you. Is that close?

Jeremy

Yes, okay Um, and from there you had to have what I can only imagine is a very complicated series of questions and conversations between a and b getting to the hospital with your daughters About what’s going on and what do you know and and how is our how’s our sister? Um, do you mind talking about any of that?

Tyler

Some of this I’m gonna process even in real time. Yeah, and and it’s We were in the pick you for three weeks before getting to a step down care. Okay. Um, so you were living there? Wander both of you and yes. Yeah. Yes And I think the the best illustration for what’s going on for me At that moment it happens a week later when we leave the hospital for the first time Sit tight and we’ll be right back after this short break Who could that be?

Midroll

Special delivery I’ve got a letter here with a very special word inside. Oh, what is it? The secret word is share Well, mr. Postman, thank you for bringing the bail We have been spending the morning thinking about how folks can support good pain You know when people share the podcast with their friends and family It really helps They can visit good pain co.co Subscribe to the newsletter and subscribe and share On apple or spotify That’s wonderful And I bet they’d love to share their reviews and comments too When listeners share their thoughts about topics they want to hear It helps make the show even better And don’t forget to like and share those episodes The best part is when people share good pain with someone who really needs to hear it Well, mr. Postman, thank you for sharing your time with us My pleasure. Remember everyone good pain co.com Welcome back to the rest of the episode This week later we go out and We’re we’re forced out essentially like you need to see the the light of day and and And so Tiffany and I set out one Um, just pragmatic things. We needed to Get some some clothes. We go to a local Um, you know secondhand or a discount place, but we walk into exactly we walk into this store and it’s a saturday And walking in under under my own power Is surreal Walking through the doors is is surreal because you’re no longer in I say this respectfully but kind of that zombie Movement in the hospital where you’re going through the motions You’re you’re not at all interested in going full speed Full mobility. You’re kind of grounded into the moment And then leaving that environment and being reintroduced into the world has got to be shocking I have no desire to be reintroduced to the world at this point. Yeah, in fact that That clarity of thought that comes with with traumas of saying what’s most important. Yeah I can’t I don’t want to be away from what is most important even if that is me convincing myself that You know me being present bedside with claire Is is doing more it’s not doing anything for her potentially She’s In a coma at this point. Yeah Um unaware Do I believe that it’s doing something for her? Yes, is it doing something more for me?

Tyler

Absolutely 100. Yeah, and and going out into The world. Yeah again is a Fragmentation of my focus Now I’m focused on something other than that and I don’t want that You know when people ask me, you know, what can we do to help my response was The one thing that I want You cannot give me never be able to do. Yeah, you just I I cannot answer that question for you Sure, um, I cannot help you help me and and going into walking into the store and Having a very pragmatic need to just pick up a new change of clothes And looking around And seeing people doing Normal everyday activities I couldn’t help myself but turn to tiffany and ask the question of how how is The world Continuing to move when my world has has crumbled I think it’s very common. Is that Why would they why would they be functioning and then there’s something serious going on? Why can’t you Get on board with the system which is making sure that my daughter is okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean these are very valid And I think normal questions to be asking in the moment. Yeah that followed up with then going to pick up food and So so if I could just yeah dig in a little bit So you’re at the store you’re able to function through getting clothes you recognize That something is very very off with the tone and the pace of the world But six months later or six months prior to this you thought nothing of it. Just yeah, we’re going to the store We’re buying clothes as we do But because you had the shift of priorities and recognizing. Oh my gosh This is just bizarre now You’re able to get through that Whatever means possible. Then you are able to do an internal inventory about all right. What else do we need to do while we’re out?

Jeremy

Hungry I think is the conversation. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think getting food for The army of people back at the hospital who have who have come around us and we’ll talk about I think The privilege that we have felt with just the the cloud of of community that held us up Yeah, when we were not able to to hold ourselves up literally at times. I believe that so we we go to to pick up food and Which again is this surreal exercise in answering the question of what do I want to eat?

Tyler

I it’s you know for us. It’s a you know It’s this perfunctory exercise and what what should I just get to to fuel the body We’re just kind of going through the motions. It is absolutely have to do this Okay, absolutely going through the motions. I lost 15 pounds in those first three weeks Yeah, because eating was not a priority at all for you. I’m not at all. Yeah, not at all it it it it’s And that is why You know the the people around us even you know making sure that we are getting something sure to maintain our reserves And I think as an aside this is why For me These have so many parallels to so many other things that are not acute trauma Whether it’s you know the mom who is a new mom Who is focused exclusively on taking care of her child who who is not taking care of herself? Sure, and that we’ve built a structure in this world where we expect people to To take care of themselves and for without a community That’s an aside and I think we’ll get there, but it’s valid though I think you go to those kind of fundamental recognitions about my role in this situation who I’m Providing care for and supervision and etc etc. And so I think that’s very universal, right? And this when we went to go pick up food we We experienced that I mean fast forward to the end of this we we left that restaurant in tears and and the reason is is because of The smallest aspects of kindness that were shown to us that were sufficient To give us what we needed which in that case What we needed was the tears it wasn’t the calories. No Do you want to dig into what happened because that was a great story? I don’t know if you’re yeah, no, absolutely it’s it’s so we walk in and we start putting in the order and as part of this order Is two quesadillas for our eight and six year old? Okay And the person taking the order asks us are Are these For you or are these for for you know somebody else and And we said oh there for our our our kids. He said well to help you save some money I think it would make more sense If we you know, we’ve got these kids quesadillas. They were cheaper. He put it upon himself to he was being Save money generous for your benefit not for his correct. Yeah Whatever facade we had He crumbled and you’re no longer holding it together. Yeah, no ability. That was the tipping points And this poor I mean the this this the poor guy who Didn’t know what he was in for when he got ready to go to work well Meaning thought he was just gonna help Yes, out with saving some box. Yes, and like I asked this couple. Yeah Whether they want a different quesadillas And I made them cry They’re on their own. Oh it was There’s so much of of within us when That we try to hold those emotional times together so that because we know that that makes the other person uncomfortable And and we just didn’t care you couldn’t control it. No, it’s and and so we I managed to While Tiffany is working to collect herself. I managed to tell him He tried to give him some explanation So that he can be relieved of context would be helpful on the small yes What you just did for us. Yeah, that small kindness. Yeah My daughter is fighting for her life right now and I’m not bedside with her. Yeah and That kindness that you gave to us. I can’t tell you how much that means. I think he knew He got a sense. At that point when he puts the two together of why Why um, this couple is is is melting down, right? He understood and at that point the manager comes forward. He’s he’s picked up on what’s going on and he hears what’s what’s going on and They don’t know what to do at this point They kind of gets back to the training that none of us have ever gone through. There’s no playbook for this. Yeah and yet At its core without knowing what the tactics are to be deployed here They do know what to do They know intuitively they know to help They they know that there’s something they can do And I and I almost want to asterisk this as a You know can do because oftentimes that’s outcome driven where we want to convince ourselves that that We can help by seeing the results of that help. We’re looking at the end goal That’s right, and then we try to fill in the gaps to how to get to that place That’s right. Yeah, and and at this moment that you know going back to what I said is the only thing that I really want At this point is is my daughter back and healthy Yeah, and yet They do whatever they can they just start shoving cards into our hands that are you know free burritos. Yeah, um and and that That was Not sufficient To take away the pain because there was not anything that was going to do that Totally, but it was sufficient for us to get from there to the next step I want to know what the next step is but before we do Uh You needed some kindness which is a very different message and at a very different volume from what you’d had For the last several weeks, right?

Jeremy

Was this one week in or one weekend? Okay, okay um, and it was just an emotional break I’m guessing of all of that heavy focus and hoping that there’s going to be a different outcome of this and whatever else you’re processing That must have just blindsided both of you in a way that you would have never have expected But also it was kind of exactly what you needed in the moment with full recognition That’s what you needed is something that these poor guys that were making Lunch meals would not be able to provide but it was this kind of amazing thing that happened for both of you and You and I have talked about this in the past about Allowing or making allowance for you to kind of feel these feelings In a way that’s kind of protected. You’re not in front of your children because I know that’s part of guarding and all of that But that’s a huge moment I think that Trauma ends up being A two-way street. Hmm is that In reflection after after 13 years of of continuing to To get to what is a phrase that’s oftentimes used after acute traumatic events is, you know, you start moving towards your new normal A phrase that we detested And and just You know, we we’ve never wanted to have a a new normal. We this is not normal. How dare you it minimizes Yes, yes, and yet It’s a It’s an accurate statement. Sure, you know in retrospect we look at it. It’s like this is this is our life But I I I think in retrospect One of the biggest takeaways we have for that moment is that our disposition towards people that are in pain are disposition towards expressing in public emoting breaking down is not just an injury Against those who are trying to hold it together. Hmm. It’s an injury against ourselves Stealing away opportunities for us to show kindness and I look at part of the clarity that comes not just from being A part of the inner circle that’s experiencing the trauma, but those who are observers Not all of us get the chance to be fully ourselves fully whole and and live a life of purpose and When when we ask people To maintain a facade Despite the pain and the turmoil that’s underneath that surface we steal from ourselves the opportunity for Doing something meaningful even if that is just being just being kind and I That word just yeah is does not do it justice Yeah, to what kindness actually Actually is Yeah, it’s so much bigger just doesn’t work to be dismissive of that either because I think that’s It’s what every kid is taught when they’re grown up and show kindness every every group dynamic Religion whatever every culture always recognizes you have to take care of each other in some form kindness is a label for that But to be so far removed from that in our daily activities I think is where the real danger happens And I think that we start getting we start getting lost in the fact that we just don’t know how to do this anymore and and a sincere and an efficient way and And so we start maybe making overcorrections and we get into weird Times that we do things that is a total mess and then other times we see people that just knock it out of the park and they’re someone who’s in touch with themselves and Emotion and sensibilities and all of those great things There’s only one thing that I have found that actually teaches me How to do that consistently how to die to you know die to self And that is trauma That is the only thing that clarifies it for me is is that and and and interestingly enough whether it’s you know the practice of you know the person who Races past me on the interstate instead of responding is Is crafting a story that that that even says What if that person is chasing chasing an ambulance that’s carrying their daughter to the hospital wow Yeah And and that is what Immediately is like this is my opportunity to be kind even if that story is is false I don’t control the narrative that’s outside myself despite how much I Have tried to I only control yeah my own reality right and that reality conflicts so much oftentimes with what I actually believe what what I embody the the the person that I Know myself to be and yet I I get in the way Of that so often and the only the only thing that that I have found to date um That has been effective is Is trauma and and suffering and pain And for that reason Trauma is my collaborator none of that offers solace To the parent who’s going through the trauma right now or to anybody else and that’s Probably the biggest area for me is is that trauma’s role In my life belongs to me. It is not It is not wisdom for me to pass on to others in the form of platitudes like Sure, you know god Only gives to those who are able to bear It only gives you as much as you can handle. Yes or some version of that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah um Yeah, that’s I think we’re getting A little bit further afield from the mechanics of what happened The description of that experience to now the processing and integration Of what it means and I’m very sensitive to the fact that That none of those none of the processing Is you a utilitarian?

Tyler

None of the processing is utilitarian In the moment And sure and and I and that’s not because Because Ears are closed to it in the moment It’s because Sure quite processing processing and the integration is not what’s supposed to be happening in that moment One of my big struggles throughout my life has been believing that I can out think Everything That is in front of me and and I have been very successful at that It’s what I have been compensated for for doing for others It is it is by all definitions of success by an outside world. It has it has reaffirmed that. Yeah. Yeah, and I have always been two steps ahead of of everyone else and Therefore my conclusion should be if I’m two steps ahead of everybody else I should be two steps ahead of myself able to think through things And part of why I think I have come to embrace trauma Is because I’ve enjoyed the process of being outsmarted I’ve been and and that has nothing to do with The mechanics of being outsmarted the pain that’s associated with that I I’m not a sadist. I’m not a masochist. I I do not I wish it wasn’t that way and yet. Yeah, I say Me saying I wish it wasn’t that way is again me intellectualizing that There’s got to be a there’s got to be a more effective more efficient way for doing this and the truth of the matter is that I have found is There’s nothing more efficient than discomfort pain and trauma as it as a teaching tool It’s really interesting hearing you frame it that way about your confidence not arrogance confidence about The tools that have served me well Are predicated on preparation and intellect and be able to see big picture And in our experiences together I’ve seen this happen and you didn’t need to tell me this. It’s just like yeah, that’s that’s who you are Do you think just picking up on what you said earlier about This experience has really forced you to not be in control or perceive control about What those mechanisms can do for you in this situation because it’s new It’s the world for you got much larger on that day and continues to Be something that you’re in exploration about and it’s something that you can’t get to the conclusion of Is is that something that’s fair or do you think that this is something that I know you’ve done a ton of work?

Jeremy

But this is still a really big question and challenge managing things from outcomes or results or conclusion basis Is part of my problem And I again I put the quotes around the word problem It’s shorthand for for for challenges. It’s shorthand for the discomfort Me being as conclusion outcome or results driven as I have been for most of my life That’s just who I am. Yeah, and There’s the opportunity for me looking like Using you know shame and guilt to say I shouldn’t be so You know conclusion driven. I should not be um of believing that there is something I should be doing and for me that historically has predisposed me To believing that if there’s something I should be doing there’s another formula. There’s more knowledge That I should be accumulating In order to figure out to crack the code to crack the case so that I can stop doing that. Yeah This is something that that we wrestled with as we started getting further into Our our new world after claire was injured is the fact that I think as parents one of the things we have to do is we’re We’re writing history as we’re living it right we’re figuring out things in real time and believing that there is some outcome or result That equals perfect That can be tackled through knowledge that can be track tackled through an accumulation of of Variables that we somehow can forecast what is what the outcome should be right is if something I’m more and more suspect of The times where I have been found out the most surprised in a delightful way Is when I stop trying to figure figure out what the lesson is when I start Stop trying to figure out what what my arrival point should be This is something Tiffany and I wrestled with because when when you’re presented with An event that that has no playbook that that is fluid that is not Deterministic meaning do this and it equals This we are having to make decisions in the absence of perfect information We’re having to make decisions. Yeah in in a situation that nobody knows feels like you’re the first one Absolutely exploring this new territory. Yeah, early on we had to make a decision with claire around an experimental approach that made sense Yeah, when you’re in a situation of what’s called a Noxic medical situation And that is a hundred percent loss of oxygen to the brain Oh, wow versus hypoxic, which is a you know strokes oftentimes are defined as hypoxic. Okay There’s a temporary loss. Yes a partial loss to and and it leads to tissue death ischemia’s strokes cause this And strokes can also can either be hypoxic or an oxyc and in claire’s case hers was an anoxic injury And a hundred percent loss of of oxygen to the brain and and what that does to the brain is variable And dependent on age dependent on the temperature of the water that that it occurred in oh, wow But what we do know is is that uh with you know when there is A drowning event in Fresh water that is cold. Hmm. There’s a higher recoverability The warmer the water the more contaminate the water the the more complications that get introduced It’s it’s this is where the fun part and the the the deception of controlling certain variables starts to creep in Is is that there are things that we know For someone who’s experienced an injury right getting closer and closer to a hundred percent recovery Wow yet It’s not causal It’s not Do x y and z and you get this outcome as much as That’s what we want as parents and and I think all of us as as parents as caregivers as people who are Around the the a part of the support group Those are the natures of the questions we ask what’s available to us. What more could we be doing? Yeah, yeah, of course and and we as parents Are balancing A a couple of things one is We’re not parents of one. We’re parents of three And we’ve got a six and an eight year old that we have a choice that we have to make which is to what degree of Almost running our own clinical trials How far down that path do we go?

Tyler

All I think every single parent would say I would do anything and yet in hindsight We need to be very careful. It’s a dangerous statement. It is very careful because Are we doing things for? The patient for for our child. Are we doing it for the family? Are we doing it for ourselves? These are the things we start to wrestle with as parents. This is these are the things when we are caregivers of of parents and we have to make decisions for them. It’s it’s We’re we’re we’re dealing with multiple impacted parties and Yeah, there is no no Right or wrong at this point. There there is a we are weighing A lot of imperfect information Against against hope absolutely huge factor here a motion is a big piece that clouds a lot of the judgment but you have to be very very Lucid with in fact There are outcomes that will have a Large spectrum that will impact us in various ways That’s a lot to process and deal with in real time. Yes And then retroactively you’re always having that question about should I do it? I know more. Yes. Yes. You know, it’s The we could spin so far off now into the opportunities that you know this the sparities of Of what’s available to people based on socioeconomic status That there are things that we know could be done interventions that if done earlier Yeah, would be beneficial and yet only a certain portion of our society has access to those. Yes, right We could talk for that about months. You know what I mean? We could talk about that for months Yeah it One of the big ones for us is it’s within anoxic brain injuries and hypoxic brain injuries There are certain things that that makes sense One of these that I mentioned earlier was around this Cold versus hot. Yeah, I had no idea about this and one of the big things with brain injuries that is also Less or known is is that the the initial injury the global injury to the entire brain itself oftentimes isn’t what determines The the long-term recovery period every time on infection as well and we’re talking about yeah secondary Yeah, secondary onset of what happens in the brain and and one of those is Is swelling of the brain the doctor that we worked with who was a very Very close friend. Okay Now as a close friend now as a close friend and and Was the right person At the right time There’s certain things that yeah, you know is just from a timing perspective. I could not have planned it any better he Had reached out to this, you know a couple of doctors who had also done experimental work where while The patient is in coma You put them on a cooling pad and you bring the body temperature down As an aside, you know as we’re researching this To make a decision the decision is do you consent?

Jeremy

Right? To doing this with your daughter Those are really powerful big words in every parent’s head.

Tyler

The answer was yes. We ended up doing it But there was sufficient Evidence to show this is it it does something it’s it’s and it can’t hurt. There’s no downside to it So it was a no brainer and one of the things that there was One of the most stark story we had Around this was there was a study that was done in end of two It was twins. Oh, wow and one of the twins was Put onto the cooling blanket and one was not and the outcome was Much in favor of the one that what I I mentioned that as an illustration of what it means to be a parent having to make that decision right and and in this situation these parents had to make the choice between Splitting the care protocol between their two kids You know this but our listeners may not that I’m a parent of twins. This is resonating in a very deep me way for me But oh my gosh And then living with the fact that there is more beneficial outcome on one than the other. That’s powerful What what you just pointed out. I think is the piece that oftentimes drives this is going back to what we said is Making these decisions as a parent. Yeah, I think we have to be Very aware as a parent as a caregiver as someone who has the decision rights And the responsibility and accountability That whatever decisions I’m making I am actively choosing That I’m going to carry with that with me right for the rest of my life I think people intuitively know that and that’s why the conversation gets harder on top of the other things that have ever even been mentioned But yeah in the moment You still have to at some point you have to make a decision This might be one of the the underlying reasons why people say Things like what we were talking about earlier of of I can’t imagine myself being in that position Is is that I think some people intuitively or implicitly are saying I can’t imagine carrying the weight of my decisions the rest of my life and and part of what we say was when we when we say You are stronger than you know Yeah, is part of our answer with that is You are strong enough to carry The weight of your decisions

Outro

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And let’s remember we are not alone in this our struggle is not our shame Whatever we are carrying today. We don’t have to carry it alone. We will see you next time